Talk:Osiris

Broken references

Was there a merge from another article in the past? There are a few references that don't point to everything, since there's no bibliography section here. Reconrabbit 15:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Should we switch "was" to "is"?

This article uses a past tense manor of speaking for an abstract concept that may or may not still be relevant in modern times. While indeed ancient, "Was" implies that the ancient Egyptian religion in concept has ceased to exist, which by nature of this article existing, for example, is false. ~2026-46810-6 (talk) 09:47, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

The concepts of the religion exist, but the system of practices does not. So there's perpetual uncertainty on this issue. It was discussed here back in November, but the discussion was inconclusive. A. Parrot (talk) 02:33, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

infobox image

An edit was has Broken out on this page over whether this image or this image should be used as the infobox image I believe that the later image is far Superior. the main issue of debate is the skin color of Osiris as the former has black skin and the later green. it is true the Osiris was depicted with black skin sometimes but green skin was by far the more common color. an anonymous user has asked for a source on this and while I have not provided one that explicitly say that green was the most common color this is because it is irreverent enough that few if any source will bother to say that it was more common but that clearly is the case. if you look up Osiris almost all of the result show him with green skin, several well known tomb such as KV16, KV17, KV57, KV62, and QV66 have green skin, basically every website I checked has a green skin version as its first image and every other image in this article has green skin, I don't need a source to state the obvious; that green skin is more common (see Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue). it should also be noted that no source has been given that refutes green being the most common color has been provided

the second issue is the caption and what the skin color represent this time I have provided source ([1]) that say the green skin represents fertility and rebirth, upon further inspection though this source does not have a Bibliography so it should not be cited I missed this the first time because I really wasn't looking that hard and other article on that website typically do cite sources. I propose that the image be corrected to File:Standing Osiris.svg but also a caption not be included until a reliable source can be found that explains what the color of his skin represented

ping @Ancient Greek Scribe @Ethiopian Epic @ScholarlyTome PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 03:41, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

As stated in my revert https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osiris&diff=prev&oldid=1337047044, the switched image used in the infobox is clearly pushing a POV (only black skin). I also don't see why we cannot just include both representations if it is that contentious, but scholarly sources say black and green overwhelmingly, sometimes as well white (eg. https://www.scribd.com/doc/244639081/The-Complete-Gods-and-Goddesses-of-Ancient-Egypt#page=121 The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, 2003, Richard H. Wilkinson, p.121), with museums in particular specifying green as the most common. UCL Researchers in Museums: https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-in-museums/2019/03/06/colours-of-ancient-egypt-green/

The green symbolism on Osiris and its meaning: https://archive.org/details/artofancientegyp0000robi/page/14/mode/2up?q=osiris+green (The Art of Ancient Egypt, 1997, Gay Robbins, p. 14)

Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 04:38, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

Osiris is very commonly referenced with black in scholarly sources. I'd maybe be okay with both, but the idea that there's a "POV" is absurd. The current is absolutely fine. No one should have an issue with it outside of some bizarre racial POV. ScholarlyTome (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

it would be unwieldy to include two images in the infobox, I believe it would be best to include both in the article but only the green skin one in the infobox PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 19:51, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

The color black depictions have more scholarly support. Osiris is even described with the words kem (black) and hbny (ebony). ScholarlyTome (talk) 03:30, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

Are you sure? When I was looking at scholarly sources most said green and black, none just black. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 12:21, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

I agree that the sources do not substantiate green being more common. Black as the original depiction/literary depiction should probably get more weight. Green is also partially due to erosion and wall-damage in some areas. Koriodan (talk) 04:11, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Once again, can you show black is the only, original or literary depiction and green a by-product of reactive corrosion? Because you have not provided anything and both depictions are known to be symbolic. The green colour of Osiris is not because of any damage, but a recognized pigment used, with deep symbolic meaning as shown above. Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 04:33, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Surviving Egyptian texts do describe him as black. I'm not sure if any describe him as green. As for corrosion, Much of the structural damage to the tomb before the 1950s and 1960s was caused by Belzoni. Belzoni, in an effort to bring back pieces of Egyptian art, damaged much of the work within the tomb. He made "squeezes", a form of copying artwork by pressing wet wax, plaster and sometimes paper against the reliefs; when they dried, the color was pulled away, and a negative impression was made of the carvings, but it also damaged many of the reliefs and carvings.[2] This means complementary photos usually aren't a good measure. And I'm not saying he was never painted as green, I believe he was in some instances, just not that it's not more common. It's actually a newer thing. Koriodan (talk) 06:23, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

None of that says anything about Osiris's green pigmentation being caused by erosion nor does it even refer to the deity. It does not even mention if such colour on Osiris was caused by any structural physical damages which is what is actually being discussed on that article.

As I could not find that segmented you quoted on the page about the preservation of Seti I's tomb, any search for "damage" gave instead: "Since it was uncovered in 1817 by Giovanni Belzoni, different forms of damage have left their mark on the Tomb of Seti I, the most invasive being those caused by the human hand. Attitudes to preservation at Belzoni’s time were vastly different from those that dominated one hundred years ago when Carter discovered the Tomb of Tutankhamun, or those that are emerging in today’s world of online and offline access." and "Another major cause of damage has been the removal and attempted removal of sections of the tomb, some of which are now in public and private collections around the world. Most notably, a pair of door jambs were removed in the 19th century and are now in the Louvre in Paris and the Museo Archeologico in Florence."

These come from exactly what you linked: https://factumfoundation.org/our-projects/digitisation/the-theban-necropolis-preservation-initiative/the-tomb-of-seti-i/ Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 06:48, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

The Papyrus of Ani also depicts Osiris as green and I don't see how that could possible be the result of damage, I also don't see why damage would cause black to become green, it seems more likely it would become gray after all that what happens to the black pigment in the Temple of Seti I at Abydos. I also have never seen an Egyptian source that describes his skin as black and even if there was they way the God's were describes was often different from how they were actually depicted, for instance gods we often said to have skin of gold, bones of silver and hair of lapis lazuli yet they were never actually depicted with these features. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 14:40, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Legends of the Gods by Ph.D E. A. Wallis Budge (a collection of translated ancient Egyptian texts) includes text that reference Osiris with the color black, as well as his author opinion of the same.

"Osiris does not symbolize the Nile only, nor Typhon the sea only, but that Osiris represents the principle and power of moisture in general, and that Typhon represents everything which is scorching, burning, and fiery, and whatever destroys moisture. Osiris they believe to have been of a black colour. The Mnevis Bull kept at Heliopolis is, like Osiris, black in colour, "and even Egypt itself, by reason of the extreme blackness of the soil." ScholarlyTome (talk) 00:51, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

Linking: https://www.wisdomlib.org/various/book/legends-of-the-gods/d/doc5723.html Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 04:09, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

one source is a start but the clear overwhelming consensus with everyone is still that both green and black were used, it should also be stated that E. A. Wallis Budge died over 90 years ago so while still useful his work is quite outdated and also that this source does not necessarily deny that green was also used PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 22:22, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

@A. Parrot your incite would be useful in this discussion PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 02:31, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

@ScholarlyTome note that the Budge quote is a translation of Plutarch's Isis and Osiris, ie it's an ancient Greco-Roman source, not modern scholarship and not an ancient Egyptian text (hence references to the Egyptians as "they") Furius (talk) 15:13, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

User ScholarlyTome was banned for sockpuppetry. Having said that, neither ScholarlyTome, nor any of ScholarlyTome's aliases express any desire to acknowledge even the existence of any information or datum that dares to contradict their chosen position. Mr Fink (talk) 16:06, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find sources that explicitly say green or black is more common, but it should be fairly obvious that green is more widespread among the surviving examples.

Every tomb in the Valley of the Kings in which a color portrayal of Osiris survives gives him green skin, and as far as I can tell the same is true of nearly all New Kingdom private tombs (e.g., Menna, Nebamun and Ipuky, Userhat, Pashedu, Inherkhau, or Sennedjem; the only exception I can find is Maya, in which every figure is rendered in gold).

Painted stelae ([3], [4]) and coffins ([5], [6]) are a similar story.

Temple reliefs with preserved color are less common, but in the temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari, the temple of Seti I at Abydos and the Temple of Hathor at Deir el-Medina a thousand years later, he's green.

The only black examples I can think of are on papyri, e.g., BD Gatsehsen, BD Herwebenkhet, or this image on Commons that looks genuine but I can't trace. But even on papyri, green seems more common, e.g., BD Nakht, BD Ankhefenkhonsu, BD Pinedjem, BD Padiamenet, and of course the inescapable BD Hunefer and BD Ani. A. Parrot (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

The Egypt Book of the Dead depicts Osiris with black[7]. This matches what writings say.

Osiris also predates the New Kingdom. ScholarlyTome (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

You're not listening. Some copies of the Book of the Dead give Osiris black skin. Others give him green, and of the copies I can find—which is not a scientific sample, but it's all we have—green seems to be more common.

Of course the sample shouldn't be limited to the New Kingdom. The examples I listed above include Third Intermediate Period papyri, stelae, and coffins, as well as one Ptolemaic relief. But there aren't as many images of deities with surviving color from before the New Kingdom. I have found one instance, a stela of the hall keeper of the palace Senwosretankh in the Metropolitan Museum of Art—but the stela portrays Osiris with the default red-brown skin given to most male figures, so it doesn't figure in to the green-vs.-black debate. A. Parrot (talk) 04:30, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

I disagree, and regardless black matches the period texts. ScholarlyTome (talk) 04:27, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

even if you are correct that written egyptian sources call him black, drawings of him are still overwhelmingly green which cannot be denied. and these images are based on drawing not description in nearly every case as that does a far better job of demonstrating how he was actually depicted. Would a flag based on a description be more accurate than one based on a photo? of course not and the same applies here. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 12:30, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

Obviously we should go with the sources. Counting pictures of faded walls from entirely different eras is original research. But this doesn't mean green gets removed from the article or anything. ScholarlyTome (talk) 15:38, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

Ancient egyptian art IS a source, a primary source in fact. we can't have a discussion about what color the Egyptians painted Osiris and ignore Egyptian paintings of Osiris. besides most scholarly sources state that both green and black were used. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 17:28, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

No, pictures of faded walls is original research. And is far as I can tell there is no actual Ancient Egyptian text that describes him that way. ScholarlyTome (talk) 08:26, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

clearly nothing is going to change your mind but the consensus among all other users still in this discussion is that you are incorrect, even if you disagree at this point it is best to just concede. your preferred image will still be on this page just not as the Infobox image. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 16:34, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

The stela of queen Nubkhaes from the 13th Dynasty appears that it may depict him with green skin, but it's very faded so it's difficult to discern - though one can tell it's not black. Star11308 (talk) 13:08, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

Something to note here is that while ScholarlyTome quoted Budge as a source above, this isn't actually Budge writing—it's Plutarch in On Isis and Osiris 33, from which Budge is quoting a translation. Plutarch is using Osiris's color as supporting evidence that Osiris represents moisture in contrast with the "dry and fiery" Set (or Typhon, as Plutarch calls him), as part of Plutarch's interpretation relating various Egyptian deities to the elements found in Greek philosophy. As a more recent translation renders it:

"...believing, for this reason, that [Set] was of red and sallow complexion, [the Egyptians] do not gladly encounter or willingly associate with men of this appearance. They relate in their myths that Osiris, on the other hand, was of dark complexion, because water, when mixed with anything—earth, clothes and clouds—darkens it, and the moisture present in the young makes their hair dark, while greyness, like a kind of paleness, occurs as a result of dryness in those who have passed their bloom." (Trans. J. Gwyn Griffiths, Plutarch's De Iside et Osiride, 1970, pp. 169, 171).

Plutarch's text is a primary source, and he's not doing a survey of Osiris's iconography. He's using the fact that Osiris was at times portrayed with black skin as evidence to support an unrelated argument.

Something else to note is that Jeff Dahl based File:Standing_Osiris.svg on specific ancient portrayals of Osiris, the ones in Chambers C and K of the tomb of Nefertari. Beyond just the green skin, these images have significant iconographic overlap with other portrayals such as in the one I cited from Deir el-Bahari, the first of the two stelae I linked above, the tomb of Inherkhau as linked above, the papyrus of Hunefer, the tomb of Horemheb, and the tomb of Seti I. While no set of attributes for Osiris was ever standard, Dahl's version is fairly representative of quite a lot of New Kingdom examples, including some of those that are most widely reproduced and that readers are thus most likely to see in other contexts. Other iconographic variants can and should appear in the article body, but Dahl's should remain as the lead image. A. Parrot (talk) 03:31, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

Additionally, if the greens were faded as ScholarlyTome suggests, then the black outlines and details like the faux beard and Anubis's face would also be faded. There are examples of black pigment fading or degrading in Egyptian art that I could point to, mostly from Theban tombs contemporary with those depictions, but they certainly didn't fade into bright green-blue, as it was made of carbon/soot (mentioned in this Theban Mapping Project article on tomb paintings). The tomb of Djeserkareseneb TT38, tomb of Rekhmire TT100, tomb of Userhat TT45, tomb of Menkheperraseneb TT86, tomb of Amenemhab Mahu TT58, and others show how black pigments would look when faded - the hair, outlines, and pupils would be blank and show the underlying wall/background or skin paint. I suppose this leans into OR, but it's worth bringing up. Star11308 (talk) 14:20, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

Can we just keep the green skin version, it's the version more reconizable? Also, can someone make a version of Isis with green skin, given she's sometimes also depicted in that color? UWMKEgypt (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I don't think that is needed, it seems that most Egyptian deities were occasionally depicted with green skin, I know Nephthys and Neith definitely were. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 18:19, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. In that case, I made my own version. Will also do one that has both Osiris and Isis together. UWMKEgypt (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

you should probably also do one for Nephthys then PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 15:09, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

I posted a link detailing how many locations have structural and archival damage.[8] As editors we shouldn't be using pictures of any of them to make conclusions about frequency. Not to mention that photos can be color corrected, modified, and displays themselves often have differently calibrated colors.

I suggest deferring to how the Ancient Egyptians themselves wrote about Osiris which appears to be black. Other depictions can also be included on the page. Koriodan (talk) 14:57, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

that link only suggests that one tomb is damaged, but there are so many others that also depicted him as green, some are in far better condition. I'm also not sure why your bringing up that colors can be corrected, many of these images are clearly not corrected and even if they all were that still points to Osiris being green otherwise they would not be corrected to green unless there was some sort of elaborate conspiracy to hide the true color of a deity from a extinct religion which is obviously not the case.

also the claim that Egyptians described him as black has not been backed up by any egyptian source. somebody said it and provided a hundred year old translation of a Greek guy two thousand years ago saying that he was black but this is weaker evidence than the countless depictions of him as green. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 15:29, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

This source here refers to actual ancient egyptian text. ScholarlyTome (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

As I already explained, that's not Egyptian text. It's Plutarch, a Greek, making a philosophical argument about Egyptian beliefs. A. Parrot (talk) 14:19, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

What I'm referring to is ancient egyptian text, which describes Osiris as black using words kem (black) and hbny (ebony) and which is supported by multiple scholars and translations. You're referring to something different and supporting my point. Both ancient egyptians and even far away greeks noted Osiris was described with black. ScholarlyTome (talk) 08:12, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

yet you cannot actually provide an example. and once again images are better then descriptions here and images show him green overwhelmingly. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 13:12, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

The consensus is clearly against you, unless you find and cite several very good sources before tomorrow I will restore the version with the green skin infobox images and black skin secondary image, if you continue to edit war after this I will report this to WP:ANI. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 11:32, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

This supposed damage and color correction would apply to the Third Intermediate Period and onward artworks used as a baseline for the black-skinned red-shrouded depiction you prefer as well, not just the earlier green-skinned white-shrouded ones. Star11308 (talk) 13:46, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Might I propose that, rather than use a depiction of Osiris with green or black skin-tone, we compromise and use one with neither? Like a statue with no coloring? ~2026-14644-64 (talk) 09:22, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

At this point the discussion is just convincing the one guy who still digresses that Osiris was primarily green to drop the issue so I don't think that solution would be necessary, it also would be inconsistent with the infobox images of other major Egyptian deites. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 19:06, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

Multiple people disagree with you. ~2026-13060-07 (talk) 11:26, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Btw and once again images are better then descriptions here and images show him green overwhelmingly. This is your original research. Wikipedia isn't based on your interpretation of random images. ~2026-13060-07 (talk) 11:29, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

It is not WP:OR or my interpretation, it is an objective fact that almost every ancient painting or color relief of Osiris colors his skin a shade of green its not research it is something you can see with your own eyes. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 11:42, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

It's both WP:OR and your interpretation. ~2026-13060-07 (talk) 12:43, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

The SVG images used in the infoboxes of articles on Egyptian deities are composites based on visual depictions of the deities from antiquity, not textual descriptions. By the same logic, the image with the black skin and red shroud shouldn't be used either, since it's seemingly a composite of iconography from Third Intermediate Period "yellow" type coffins. Star11308 (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

That's a good way to put it. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 14:43, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Black has quality sources while green does not. ~2026-13060-07 (talk) 12:42, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

What sources? You keep using the plural, but the Plutarch quotation is the only one you've specified. A. Parrot (talk) 13:14, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

Oppose the use of a statue, because all other pages on Egyptian gods use the Wikipedia Commons SVG illustrations. Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

As a related aside, should we have the article pagelocked so this editwar can be paused until consensus is achieved? Mr Fink (talk) 16:07, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

User:ScholarlyTome has been now blocked for sockpuppetry, and ~2026-13060-07 is carrying on ScholarlyTome's arguments without interruption, so it's possible we're just dealing with one sockpuppeteer opposing the long-standing green SVG image. A. Parrot (talk) 16:59, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

yeah I've suspected for a while that severely of the people arguing against it are really the same person using different accounts. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 17:02, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

Should we close this debate then, since the person who started it has been blocked for sockpuppetry? Also, just in case, can we protect the green varients of Osiris, Isis, and the other Egyptian gods and goddesses in case that same user tries to use other accounts to overwrite them? UWMKEgypt (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

I don't think protection is necessary for them. It's probably not even necessary for this page; if the sockpuppeteer reverts again, we can just report it at SPI. A. Parrot (talk) 17:35, 12 March 2026 (UTC)

It is not simply one editor who disagrees with this. My main contention is that green is not supported in academic sources. Koriodan (talk) 08:04, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

yes it is PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 12:27, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

Listen here man, the fact you keep skipping other academic sources and ignoring points made by other creators because you don't like ANY Egyptian gods or godesses being green is disrespectful and unhelpful. And the fact you cannot actually provide an example and since the images of the gods and goddesses overwhelmingly show Osiris, and to some extent Isis, green shows it's clear you're only doing this because you don't like the color. Plus the fact some of the "users" that came to defend you here above have been blocked for sockpuppetry doesn't help your case. If you want to add different colors of the god like in egyptian red or black, you can add it to the article, but otherwise, stop making these false claims and stop using different accounts to defend yourself.

I may add the other color varients later, but I will also be asking the admins to add protection for the Egyptian gods and goddesses to stop this pointless argument from continuing. UWMKEgypt (talk) 01:32, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

Please name even one academic source, preferably an Egyptian one, for green. Because I've yet to see even one. Koriodan (talk) 10:57, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

Do you not know how to read? Your insistence on WP:ICANTHEARTHAT is strongly suggesting you're selectively illiterate. Sources have been repeatedly given to support a green-skinned Osiris both in the article and in this thread. Mr Fink (talk) 14:51, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

• @Koriodan:, consider yourself officially warned: drop the stick and move on, or face sanctions for disruptive editing. Don't die on this hill. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:10, 29 March 2026 (UTC)

cite

This source doesn't say anything about Osiris: "Catholic Encyclopedia: Theodosius I". Newadvent.org. 1912-07-01. Retrieved 2012-05-01. Maybe it should be deleted? Mevsherd (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

Y Yes it should be removed, I will do that now. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 23:29, 4 April 2026 (UTC)